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	<title>Comments on: Is 4E the deadliest D&amp;D?</title>
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		<title>By: Ptorq</title>
		<link>http://www.dungeonmastering.com/campaigns-adventures/is-4e-the-deadliest-dd#comment-11537</link>
		<dc:creator>Ptorq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 22:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dungeonmastering.com/?p=1177#comment-11537</guid>
		<description>If you go back and read Dragon magazine from the 1st edition (or even pre-AD&amp;D) days, you&#039;ll quickly see that the mentality of a LARGE number of articles is aimed squarely at &quot;Kill them. Kill them ALL.&quot; A fair proportion of the articles even contain phrases like &quot;Here&#039;s a new way to kill off those too-clever players...&quot;

Let&#039;s face it: there are insanely improbable creatures in old-school D&amp;D that seem to exist solely for the purpose of punishing GOOD play. Oh, your pesky players are making it hard for you to catch them off guard because they&#039;ve started listening at every door? No problem, just hit them with a few Ear Seekers (termite-like creatures that live inside doors and burrow into a character&#039;s ears and EAT THEIR BRAIN when someone tries to listen at a door) and they&#039;ll get over THAT right quick. And that&#039;s just one example.

All that said... our group&#039;s characters in 4e are dropping like flies. It was rare for a character to go down at all in 3.5, but in 4 so far the ratio of characters in negative hit points to combat encounters is pretty close to 1:1 (if you count yoyo healing... he&#039;s up, he&#039;s down, he&#039;s up, he&#039;s down... more than once, then it&#039;s higher than that). In one encounter we lost two characters, and another encounter left only one character still standing at the end; he had expended every available source of healing, and was half a surge from death.

So, I think both viewpoints may be correct here. DMs may be less inclined to do their utmost to wipe the party, but some of these supposedly reasonable encounters (they&#039;re from a published module, so it&#039;s not like our DM is specifically out to get us) seem proportionally a lot tougher.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you go back and read Dragon magazine from the 1st edition (or even pre-AD&amp;D) days, you&#8217;ll quickly see that the mentality of a LARGE number of articles is aimed squarely at &#8220;Kill them. Kill them ALL.&#8221; A fair proportion of the articles even contain phrases like &#8220;Here&#8217;s a new way to kill off those too-clever players&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s face it: there are insanely improbable creatures in old-school D&amp;D that seem to exist solely for the purpose of punishing GOOD play. Oh, your pesky players are making it hard for you to catch them off guard because they&#8217;ve started listening at every door? No problem, just hit them with a few Ear Seekers (termite-like creatures that live inside doors and burrow into a character&#8217;s ears and EAT THEIR BRAIN when someone tries to listen at a door) and they&#8217;ll get over THAT right quick. And that&#8217;s just one example.</p>
<p>All that said&#8230; our group&#8217;s characters in 4e are dropping like flies. It was rare for a character to go down at all in 3.5, but in 4 so far the ratio of characters in negative hit points to combat encounters is pretty close to 1:1 (if you count yoyo healing&#8230; he&#8217;s up, he&#8217;s down, he&#8217;s up, he&#8217;s down&#8230; more than once, then it&#8217;s higher than that). In one encounter we lost two characters, and another encounter left only one character still standing at the end; he had expended every available source of healing, and was half a surge from death.</p>
<p>So, I think both viewpoints may be correct here. DMs may be less inclined to do their utmost to wipe the party, but some of these supposedly reasonable encounters (they&#8217;re from a published module, so it&#8217;s not like our DM is specifically out to get us) seem proportionally a lot tougher.</p>
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		<title>By: The Recursion King</title>
		<link>http://www.dungeonmastering.com/campaigns-adventures/is-4e-the-deadliest-dd#comment-7586</link>
		<dc:creator>The Recursion King</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 19:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dungeonmastering.com/?p=1177#comment-7586</guid>
		<description>You speak of your way of DM&#039;ing as though it were the only way; many of us sandbox and allow the story to emerge from the PC&#039;s actions and descisions and do not railroad our players along precrafted stories. For us, the facets of system itself can be easily compared, as our players understand that a bad die roll can kill their characters - we even roll our dice in front of them. This is a very different way to play your style. Even encounter selection can be left to random tables; I&#039;m with Gary Gygax on this one; let the first level party encounter 30 orcs and have them learn to hide because the world does not revolve around them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You speak of your way of DM&#8217;ing as though it were the only way; many of us sandbox and allow the story to emerge from the PC&#8217;s actions and descisions and do not railroad our players along precrafted stories. For us, the facets of system itself can be easily compared, as our players understand that a bad die roll can kill their characters &#8211; we even roll our dice in front of them. This is a very different way to play your style. Even encounter selection can be left to random tables; I&#8217;m with Gary Gygax on this one; let the first level party encounter 30 orcs and have them learn to hide because the world does not revolve around them.</p>
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		<title>By: GiacomoArt</title>
		<link>http://www.dungeonmastering.com/campaigns-adventures/is-4e-the-deadliest-dd#comment-7584</link>
		<dc:creator>GiacomoArt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 18:36:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dungeonmastering.com/?p=1177#comment-7584</guid>
		<description>To say some rules systems are nastier than others is comparing apples to oranges. A kobold in 1st-edition D&amp;D would be doing well to take on the weakest PC ever in one-to-one combat. In 4E, a room full of kobolds is as much to be feared as a room full of... well, pretty much anything. Meanwhile, I hear, it&#039;s easier than ever to scale an encounter with a dragon for low-level PCs. Monster deadliness varies less by creature type than by monster level. So you can&#039;t just say, &quot;Well, it took 35 goblins to kill off your party in SuperMegaDungeon 3rd-edition, but only 21 goblins to kill off your party in Zookoorooni the Plastering (TM), ergo Zookoorooni is deadlier.&quot; There are a zillion different variables that apply to each game, to every encounter, and to every possible mix of player characters.

The one constant as you jump from game to game is that it&#039;s entirely up to the game master to walk that line between making things too easy for the PCs and for making things too hard. If he thinks it&#039;s time for an encounter/adventure/campaign with a high mortality rate, he&#039;s going to do his best to balance the probabilities involved to cause a high mortality rate. Where the module says, &quot;4 orcs,&quot; he might throw in six. Where the rule book says, &quot;Paralysis lasts until the end of the victim&#039;s next turn,&quot; he says it last three turns. Where he could choose to pit your party against the fluffy chalk-drawing puppets of Sunshine Land, he instead chooses use Blooddrinker the Uber-Vampire Without Pity as your nemesiss for the campaign. And he can do all this without breaking a sweat, whether he&#039;s playing D&amp;D 4E or Steve Jackson&#039;s &quot;Toon&quot;. This despite the fact that there&#039;s no death in Toon -- or at least there wasn&#039;t, right up until the point the GM said there was.

MMORPGs may dispassionately generate random encounters with no concern for your PCs&#039; capabilities or history, but no GM worth his salt is anything close to unbiased. Even if he could pull it off, he couldn&#039;t pull it off nearly as well as a computer does, so the conceit of the impartial human referee that Gygax envisioned as part of role-playing three decades ago has been slain by the information age. The GM is a storyteller, not just some guy sitting there to make sure his players don&#039;t cheat, and whichever set of rules he uses, it&#039;s just a tool to help him create drama. The rules system will have a profound effect on what components he unleashes to accomplish a desired effect, but he will always start with knowing the desired effect and select those components he thinks will best achieve it -- even if those components are a set of random tables he chooses to delegate the final decision to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To say some rules systems are nastier than others is comparing apples to oranges. A kobold in 1st-edition D&amp;D would be doing well to take on the weakest PC ever in one-to-one combat. In 4E, a room full of kobolds is as much to be feared as a room full of&#8230; well, pretty much anything. Meanwhile, I hear, it&#8217;s easier than ever to scale an encounter with a dragon for low-level PCs. Monster deadliness varies less by creature type than by monster level. So you can&#8217;t just say, &#8220;Well, it took 35 goblins to kill off your party in SuperMegaDungeon 3rd-edition, but only 21 goblins to kill off your party in Zookoorooni the Plastering (TM), ergo Zookoorooni is deadlier.&#8221; There are a zillion different variables that apply to each game, to every encounter, and to every possible mix of player characters.</p>
<p>The one constant as you jump from game to game is that it&#8217;s entirely up to the game master to walk that line between making things too easy for the PCs and for making things too hard. If he thinks it&#8217;s time for an encounter/adventure/campaign with a high mortality rate, he&#8217;s going to do his best to balance the probabilities involved to cause a high mortality rate. Where the module says, &#8220;4 orcs,&#8221; he might throw in six. Where the rule book says, &#8220;Paralysis lasts until the end of the victim&#8217;s next turn,&#8221; he says it last three turns. Where he could choose to pit your party against the fluffy chalk-drawing puppets of Sunshine Land, he instead chooses use Blooddrinker the Uber-Vampire Without Pity as your nemesiss for the campaign. And he can do all this without breaking a sweat, whether he&#8217;s playing D&amp;D 4E or Steve Jackson&#8217;s &#8220;Toon&#8221;. This despite the fact that there&#8217;s no death in Toon &#8212; or at least there wasn&#8217;t, right up until the point the GM said there was.</p>
<p>MMORPGs may dispassionately generate random encounters with no concern for your PCs&#8217; capabilities or history, but no GM worth his salt is anything close to unbiased. Even if he could pull it off, he couldn&#8217;t pull it off nearly as well as a computer does, so the conceit of the impartial human referee that Gygax envisioned as part of role-playing three decades ago has been slain by the information age. The GM is a storyteller, not just some guy sitting there to make sure his players don&#8217;t cheat, and whichever set of rules he uses, it&#8217;s just a tool to help him create drama. The rules system will have a profound effect on what components he unleashes to accomplish a desired effect, but he will always start with knowing the desired effect and select those components he thinks will best achieve it &#8212; even if those components are a set of random tables he chooses to delegate the final decision to.</p>
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		<title>By: The Recusion King</title>
		<link>http://www.dungeonmastering.com/campaigns-adventures/is-4e-the-deadliest-dd#comment-7546</link>
		<dc:creator>The Recusion King</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 08:57:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dungeonmastering.com/?p=1177#comment-7546</guid>
		<description>Exactly; all power ultimately rests with the DM, not the rules. However, some rule system are nastier than others, hence, this topic. Ultimately, its not a black and white issue; a nasty DM will kill you with any rules system, whereas a completely neutral one will find that some systems kill characters off more frequently than others..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly; all power ultimately rests with the DM, not the rules. However, some rule system are nastier than others, hence, this topic. Ultimately, its not a black and white issue; a nasty DM will kill you with any rules system, whereas a completely neutral one will find that some systems kill characters off more frequently than others..</p>
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		<title>By: Giacomo</title>
		<link>http://www.dungeonmastering.com/campaigns-adventures/is-4e-the-deadliest-dd#comment-7539</link>
		<dc:creator>Giacomo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 02:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dungeonmastering.com/?p=1177#comment-7539</guid>
		<description>&quot;That is so the other way around. The game will kill off the PC’s - but the DM may fudge the dice rolls to keep them alive. So the DM may SAVE them by cheating, working AGAINST the game (mechanics and dice rolls).&quot;

This is like saying that you&#039;d rather find yourself in a dark alley with Hannibal Lector holding a chainsaw than with Mother Theresa holding an AK-47, because the AK-47 is the deadlier of the two weapons. Until the DM puts you into a room with a monster, the rules don&#039;t even start to kick in. And it&#039;s entirely up to him whether you&#039;re facing six kobold minions or six hundred ancient red dragons. The DM chooses the adventures. The DM chooses the encounters. The DM chooses whether you&#039;re facing an underconfident coward whole faint at the first sight of a blade, or a bloodthirsty fanatic who&#039;ll keep fighting for five hours after his heart stops beating.

The dice and the rules hold zero power that the DM does not imbue them with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;That is so the other way around. The game will kill off the PC’s &#8211; but the DM may fudge the dice rolls to keep them alive. So the DM may SAVE them by cheating, working AGAINST the game (mechanics and dice rolls).&#8221;</p>
<p>This is like saying that you&#8217;d rather find yourself in a dark alley with Hannibal Lector holding a chainsaw than with Mother Theresa holding an AK-47, because the AK-47 is the deadlier of the two weapons. Until the DM puts you into a room with a monster, the rules don&#8217;t even start to kick in. And it&#8217;s entirely up to him whether you&#8217;re facing six kobold minions or six hundred ancient red dragons. The DM chooses the adventures. The DM chooses the encounters. The DM chooses whether you&#8217;re facing an underconfident coward whole faint at the first sight of a blade, or a bloodthirsty fanatic who&#8217;ll keep fighting for five hours after his heart stops beating.</p>
<p>The dice and the rules hold zero power that the DM does not imbue them with.</p>
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