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	<title>Comments on: Epic Showdown: Role-players vs. Powergamers</title>
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	<link>http://www.dungeonmastering.com/gaming-life/epic-showdown-role-players-vs-powergamers</link>
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		<title>By: gull2112</title>
		<link>http://www.dungeonmastering.com/gaming-life/epic-showdown-role-players-vs-powergamers#comment-7981</link>
		<dc:creator>gull2112</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 21:34:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dungeonmastering.com/?p=1362#comment-7981</guid>
		<description>One thing I&#039;d like to add is that 4E is difficult to power game. More accurately, the motivation isn&#039;t there. You don&#039;t need to min in order to max. The level bonus smooths things out so by tenth level where you put your 18 vs. your 14 isn&#039;t as big a deal. My player who favored rangers used to have a favorite saying, &quot;I&#039;m a ranger, I know these things.&quot; This would come up everytime he was trying to do somethng that was very ranger like, but that he hadn&#039;t put any points into. Now it is a true statement, he does know things just because he is a tenth level ranger! It is also possible to take a feat to make any stat your primary stat for combat.

I have heard enough from people who say that 4E railroads characters into set paths, I find just the opposite is true. You take just about any character concept and try to build a 4E and a 3.5 character (including pathfinder) and I have found that 4E does a much better job. Here is my real life case in point; I have a player who is in my 4E campaign and in a pathfinder campaign, he enjoys both campaigns for the role-playing and the people, so I would say we have controlled for those variables;-) Now, he had a concept for a halfling fighter that used a shield offensively, as much as a short sword in combat (he is a classics major and that is how Romans fought). In pathfinder it was a really forced and illogical character because the system didn&#039;t really allow it, he had to be almost 20th level before it really worked at all. Balance this with a 4E fighter who gets a shield bash type attack or variation at almost every level, and even at 1st level he had a feel for that kind of fighting, and by eleventh level there is even a paragon path for shield fighting. I will allow that a power gamer would choose a dwarf over a halfling, but you can still generate a viable character, and halflings even have some neat abilities vs. larger foes (which is pretty much everybody!) which make it a very fun character to play.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing I&#8217;d like to add is that 4E is difficult to power game. More accurately, the motivation isn&#8217;t there. You don&#8217;t need to min in order to max. The level bonus smooths things out so by tenth level where you put your 18 vs. your 14 isn&#8217;t as big a deal. My player who favored rangers used to have a favorite saying, &#8220;I&#8217;m a ranger, I know these things.&#8221; This would come up everytime he was trying to do somethng that was very ranger like, but that he hadn&#8217;t put any points into. Now it is a true statement, he does know things just because he is a tenth level ranger! It is also possible to take a feat to make any stat your primary stat for combat.</p>
<p>I have heard enough from people who say that 4E railroads characters into set paths, I find just the opposite is true. You take just about any character concept and try to build a 4E and a 3.5 character (including pathfinder) and I have found that 4E does a much better job. Here is my real life case in point; I have a player who is in my 4E campaign and in a pathfinder campaign, he enjoys both campaigns for the role-playing and the people, so I would say we have controlled for those variables;-) Now, he had a concept for a halfling fighter that used a shield offensively, as much as a short sword in combat (he is a classics major and that is how Romans fought). In pathfinder it was a really forced and illogical character because the system didn&#8217;t really allow it, he had to be almost 20th level before it really worked at all. Balance this with a 4E fighter who gets a shield bash type attack or variation at almost every level, and even at 1st level he had a feel for that kind of fighting, and by eleventh level there is even a paragon path for shield fighting. I will allow that a power gamer would choose a dwarf over a halfling, but you can still generate a viable character, and halflings even have some neat abilities vs. larger foes (which is pretty much everybody!) which make it a very fun character to play.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://www.dungeonmastering.com/gaming-life/epic-showdown-role-players-vs-powergamers#comment-7979</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 20:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dungeonmastering.com/?p=1362#comment-7979</guid>
		<description>I think the key is to set a foundation for power gamers to be forced into role-play.  By showing that powergamers can role-play to gain further power will often times be motivating enough.  I try to encourage my players to be strong in all the facets of D&amp;D.  There&#039;s nothing wrong with wanting to be powerful but I&#039;m sure you want to have something worth fighting for...that type of thing. The opposite goes with the role-players...sometimes they need a little help when they&#039;re trying to play a niche character concept.

As a DM, sometimes you have to groom the player&#039;s skills a little bit.  It&#039;s a little manipulative sometimes but it actually helps both types enjoy *more* of the game.

If you have a mixed group...I also recommend really defining what kind of DM *you* are...if you don&#039;t enjoy powergamers in your campaign...you should run your game the way you choose.  We can only try to please people so much.  If it is against your nature as a DM, then you shouldn&#039;t have to run that type of game. I mean thise solely if a powergamer is disruptive.(I.E. picking fights for no reason...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the key is to set a foundation for power gamers to be forced into role-play.  By showing that powergamers can role-play to gain further power will often times be motivating enough.  I try to encourage my players to be strong in all the facets of D&amp;D.  There&#8217;s nothing wrong with wanting to be powerful but I&#8217;m sure you want to have something worth fighting for&#8230;that type of thing. The opposite goes with the role-players&#8230;sometimes they need a little help when they&#8217;re trying to play a niche character concept.</p>
<p>As a DM, sometimes you have to groom the player&#8217;s skills a little bit.  It&#8217;s a little manipulative sometimes but it actually helps both types enjoy *more* of the game.</p>
<p>If you have a mixed group&#8230;I also recommend really defining what kind of DM *you* are&#8230;if you don&#8217;t enjoy powergamers in your campaign&#8230;you should run your game the way you choose.  We can only try to please people so much.  If it is against your nature as a DM, then you shouldn&#8217;t have to run that type of game. I mean thise solely if a powergamer is disruptive.(I.E. picking fights for no reason&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Swordgleam</title>
		<link>http://www.dungeonmastering.com/gaming-life/epic-showdown-role-players-vs-powergamers#comment-7978</link>
		<dc:creator>Swordgleam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 18:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dungeonmastering.com/?p=1362#comment-7978</guid>
		<description>This has always been more of an internal struggle for me than an external one. I&#039;ve found my solution is to bend my min-maxy antics towards things other than combat. I have an Iron Heroes character who has the highest possible Intimidate modifier for his level. I get to experience the joy of causing high numbers to appear on my character sheet, and use those high numbers in a way that moves the story forward. I&#039;m not sure if this solution would work for powergamers who are less concerned with story than I am, but it&#039;s worth a shot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This has always been more of an internal struggle for me than an external one. I&#8217;ve found my solution is to bend my min-maxy antics towards things other than combat. I have an Iron Heroes character who has the highest possible Intimidate modifier for his level. I get to experience the joy of causing high numbers to appear on my character sheet, and use those high numbers in a way that moves the story forward. I&#8217;m not sure if this solution would work for powergamers who are less concerned with story than I am, but it&#8217;s worth a shot.</p>
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		<title>By: gull2112</title>
		<link>http://www.dungeonmastering.com/gaming-life/epic-showdown-role-players-vs-powergamers#comment-7975</link>
		<dc:creator>gull2112</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 13:24:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dungeonmastering.com/?p=1362#comment-7975</guid>
		<description>Great article! This is a very real concern for DM&#039;s everywhere. My group has adapted to it unintentionally, but it is cool to see what happened and why.

We can&#039;t get together as often as we&#039;d like, we try to meet twice a month. This necessarily limits some game depth because people just can&#039;t keep track of minute details and plot twists between breaks of as much as four weeks and, of course, Real Life.

What we have evolved into is a campaign that revolves around Obsidian Portal and Role-Playing all campaign events except combat, which must be done FtF. My power gamers don&#039;t contribute heavily to the between on-line stuff, and my role-players love it, and when we meet the dice fly and everyone has a great combat time because everyone has there basic gaming needs satisfied.

This may not work for everyone, but we have been gaming as a group for over ten years and it works for us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article! This is a very real concern for DM&#8217;s everywhere. My group has adapted to it unintentionally, but it is cool to see what happened and why.</p>
<p>We can&#8217;t get together as often as we&#8217;d like, we try to meet twice a month. This necessarily limits some game depth because people just can&#8217;t keep track of minute details and plot twists between breaks of as much as four weeks and, of course, Real Life.</p>
<p>What we have evolved into is a campaign that revolves around Obsidian Portal and Role-Playing all campaign events except combat, which must be done FtF. My power gamers don&#8217;t contribute heavily to the between on-line stuff, and my role-players love it, and when we meet the dice fly and everyone has a great combat time because everyone has there basic gaming needs satisfied.</p>
<p>This may not work for everyone, but we have been gaming as a group for over ten years and it works for us.</p>
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		<title>By: Ameron</title>
		<link>http://www.dungeonmastering.com/gaming-life/epic-showdown-role-players-vs-powergamers#comment-7974</link>
		<dc:creator>Ameron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 12:38:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dungeonmastering.com/?p=1362#comment-7974</guid>
		<description>The key in my group has been balance. Any time a game focuses on just combat the role-players get bored. And when we have a night of skill challenges and dialogue the min/maxing power gamers fall asleep. With the DMing responsibilities rotating between four different members of our group we&#039;ve all realized that the best way to try and please everyone is to keep things as even as possible. Obviously there will be nights when multiple combat encounters are necessary to accomplish the goals of the campaign, but these have become more and more rare. You&#039;re never going to please everyone all the time so trying to provide equal opportunities for fighting and talking has helped a lot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The key in my group has been balance. Any time a game focuses on just combat the role-players get bored. And when we have a night of skill challenges and dialogue the min/maxing power gamers fall asleep. With the DMing responsibilities rotating between four different members of our group we&#8217;ve all realized that the best way to try and please everyone is to keep things as even as possible. Obviously there will be nights when multiple combat encounters are necessary to accomplish the goals of the campaign, but these have become more and more rare. You&#8217;re never going to please everyone all the time so trying to provide equal opportunities for fighting and talking has helped a lot.</p>
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