Top 5 Things to Miss About D&D 2nd Edition
Nine years ago I received a very special birthday present, the importance of which still persists to this day. I was given a Dungeons & Dragons Second Edition starter set, which I still have most of. I still remember my first character. He was a premade in the set, Niles the halfling thief. He trained with Dagger Daneer in the town of Haven. It was with this starter set that I had my first adventures, found a vent for my overactive imagination and made some close friends that I retain until this day. As you might imagine I am nostalgic for 2nd edition, I remember it fondly to this day. So, without further ado, the top 5 things to miss about 2nd edition:
1. Pointless Spells: I spent most of my 2nd edition days as divine casters, meaning I had a full selection of completely useless spells at the start of every morning. I didn’t often cast Goodberry or Mordenkainen’s Protection from Avians but I felt good having them. The utility spells of 4th edition are just too few and too narrow to allow the sort of unexpected problem solving you get with a good Stone to Mud spell.
2. Winging It: As I remember it 2nd edition had more rules than the editions that followed it, yet managed so much less. There wasn’t much of an overall system for resolving non-combat conflicts, although there was often a rule somewhere in the books to deal with it. More often than not the DM would just make up a solution on the fly rather than interrupt the game to look up how to deal with it properly, which often had some spectacular results. Looking back I’m sure it put a lot of pressure on the DM, but I didn’t care. I wasn’t DMing and I was having fun with it.
3. Unbalance: At times it felt like 2nd edition had thrown up it’s hands and given up on attempting to manage power. Players weren’t balanced against each other, they weren’t well balanced against the monsters that would have to fight and some abilities just didn’t seem managed at all. This was certainly frustrating at times, particularly for low level wizards or when you think you’re up against something you probably can’t beat. I didn’t like it back then but I remember it fondly now. It was actually realistic that way, sometimes a player would run wild across the weak but sometimes he would have to run away. A person who could turn into any animal really did have an awesome power which was not restricted by some rather strange and arbitrary rules. It certainly had negatives but a part of me likes the way that the universe was not constructed to be just challenging enough for however strong I happen to be.
4. Encyclopedia Magica: It has been years since I have held any of the Encyclopedia Magica books but I still remember them fondly. They were loaded up with magical items and artifacts, many of them from premade adventurers and settings books, now plucked from their original context. There items ranged from world destroying to completely useless but all of them had story and personality attached to them. It was a major blow going to 3rd edition in that regard, the magic items all felt so common and sterile. I feel like 4th is a step in the right direction but I still intend on getting my hands on the Encyclopedia Magica set and plundering it for some of the old magic.
Expy the red dragon says:
I had fun pwning 2nd edition paladins. I’d turn my back on them when they charged. I refused to fight. They were so afraid of attacking me and losing all their paladin powers! They’d end up letting their guard down and I would burn them to a holy crisp. Delicious.
5. Class Flavor: When I think of class flavor the first thing that springs to mind is a 2nd edition paladin and the laundry list of minor infractions that would get him in hot water with his god. While I personally enjoyed the the expansion of paladins to more gods and alignments, I wish more effort had been made to preserve that feel of the oath bound warrior. I recall that my 2nd edition druid got to pick nature appropriate languages when he leveled up. Being able to speak dryad and badger wasn’t a huge power advantage, it was just meant to suggest a flavor to the character. To a large extent I feel like we have lost that from D&D. The system no longer infuses that spirit into the characters, if the player wants it there he or she needs to shoulder that burden personally.
Thanks for joining me on this stroll through the museum of memories, I hope you wore the complimentary rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia. When I dreamed up this article I had no idea what half of the five things would be, five just seemed like a good number. I ended up surprising myself because I had to cut things out to keep at five, I’m not sure what the means for modern roleplaying. Don’t get too cocky though 2nd edition players, I’m sure I have a list just as long of things I hated. In fact, I’m sure some items would appear on both lists.
I want to hear about your lists. Do you love or hate 2nd edition? Also, where did you get your start playing tabletop games? Do you still pine for your first game system?
loading...
Hey Nicholas! Yes, 2nd edition nostalgia! Remember thac0s?
#1 Pointless Spells – Yes, I’m missing these in 4.0!! Wizards are now a whole lot more useful in the early game, but they are a bit less flavorful. The pointless spells that just boosted creativity, the interactions such as mud to stone & stone to flesh. Ah :)
#2 Winging it – Still have that in 4.0. Since we’re much older know and have greater understanding of rules, its not the same feeling as cracking open and deciphering the 2nd ed. rules as a teen, but there’s still loads of “winging it”.
#3 Unbalance – Played much into flavor for me as well! The meta gamer in me loves the symmetrical balancing of 4.0… but kind of misses the different power curves of the various classes in 2nd ed.
#4 Encyclopedia Magica – The set of books is lying on my self. I pick one up and choose an item at randome once every while… just to see how it and if it could be ported to 4.0….
#5 Class Flavor – Except for the feel that came with the various power curves, the base flavors of the classes are mostly still here for us. Paladins still adhere to strict moral codes. Cleric feels more like a holy soldier now than an healing pack – which is the way we always wanted to play the cleric but couldn’t because, well, we needed a medic to heal the wizard.
I started with Battletech and Shadowrun, cause my parents wouldn’t let me play D&D :) Playing a game where you killed monsters wasn’t okay, but ones where you killed people was. Hehe…
I Never needed to miss 2nd edition. It’s never gone away. In fact I have yet to play 3.0,3.5,4.0 or whatever the flavor of the week happens to be. I love 2nd ed. warts and all.
THAC0?
Get over it.
Just roll the dice and play.
I taught my kids using basic and when I moved them up to 2nd ed. Advanced it was like opening a candy store for them. They havent started to whine about THAC0 and Kits and all the other stuff people complain about, they’re having too much fun playing.
And the worlds- Mystara, Ravenloft, Birthright, Planescape, Al-Qadim (one of the most beautiful lines of RPG products ever created), Spelljammer (yes I know, Hippos and Hamsters. But hell, just cause they’re in the books doesnt mean you have to use them).
I have plenty of adventure on my shelf, I dont need to download someones re-imagining of a system, I have the originals. And I’m not about to spend 30 bucks a pop for a bunch of books that just regurgitate the same premise with different numerical formulas. Take away all the fancy mechanics and basically D&D (any version of D&D) is just a game of let’s pretend with dice added. I never really understood why folks give 2nd ed AD&D such a bad rap, when for most of them 2nd ed AD&D is where it all began. It seems that for a lot of people 2nd edition is the kid they grew up playing with all through elementary school and then in Jr. high they get new, “cooler” friends and tease the kid they grew up with.
@The Evil DM: I don’t think the adventures I’m having in 4th edition are any less valuable than the ones I had in 2nd, or vice versa. It is just a different set of tools and options to have fun with and all of them have been fun for me.
What I don’t understand is the battle lines people draw between editions. I admit that I was in the trenches for 2nd when 3rd edition came out, but since I’ve grown up it seems so stupid now. Fourth Edition players, your new ways aren’t automatically better. Second Edition players, having a game with a needlessly complex “To Hit” mechanic and enjoying it anyway doesn’t make you morally superior.
There, debate settled forever, right?
What I miss most about 2nd edition was the realism that came along it. Not including stalactite monsters who landed on you, or tricky monsters that really weren’t tree stumps or treasure chests.
I long for the feeling that I wasn’t making a character for a video game, but that I was transcribing an actual personality that exists in this wonderverse of Forgotten Realms. Third wasn’t different enough from 2nd to care about, and so far 4th still feels like I need a monthly subsciption and a guild membership in order to keep up with everyone else.
I certainly pine for 2nd, but I’m confident that 4th (minus the baby dragon men) will fill that void in my heart.
So long as I can still play a Gnome illusionist..
@Fishercatt:
you’ll need: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080616 and a Monster Manual but it can still be done.
I was born into the 3rd ed dnd but I was close to old school. I played Hackmaster it was wicked. My fave class was a swashbuckler. He was always in trouble with the ladys. -_-
Aww… good times indeed!
Pointless spells are only pointless in the wrong minds! I remember a friend playing a wild mage and casting Cantrip at a werewolf in order to swarm it with fleas. Poor wolfy is probably still scratching uncontrollably. It just goes to prove what a creative mind can come up with, even with limited resources.
I miss playing multiple times every week!
I had a number of fun adventures with 2e– Kevin’s adventures in the Skellwoods, with me playing Alanora the hopelessly useless bard, are among my favorites memories today.
I got started on D&D through the Baldur’s Gate computer game. So, I guess you could say I started on 2nd edition.
Even though I never played 2nd edition on the tabletop, some of the rules are still bouncing around in my head.
For example, I just discovered last week that Clerics in 3rd edition can use edged weapons- go figure. And that’s after a year of playing 3.5 almost every week. (I think Cleric weapons restrictions might be a piece of that class flavor of which Nicholas wrote.) :)
@ZEDZED77
Some clerics could use edged weapons in 2nd edition. Or at least I’m pretty sure that the Complete Priest Handbook opened that option up. Seems like one deity in the CPHB had a whip as the favored weapon… that’s definitely breaking the mold of bludgeoning weapons.
You could often go the “Specialty Priest” route for 2nd edition. That opened up the class to a wider variety of weapons based on their deity.
@The Evil DM: Yes!! I still have the priest handbook :) I remember building an “amazon warrior princess” (pre-xena) that worshiped a god of war. Her holy symbol was the longsword and her whole purpose was to “participate and promote bloody battles”. As an amazon, she had a bonus against male fighters fighting an amazon for the first time.
In the higher levels, she purposely created conflicts between different parties… for war’s sake.
Good times :)
I miss the Burger King!!!
All the expanded books to help you flesh out your character and game. You know, all those brown, green, and blue softcover books.
But overall, the thing I miss most about 2nd edition is all the people I played with back then. I’d be willing to break out my 2nd edition stuff for a game or two. heck, I’d break out Rules Cyclopedia for a decent campaign. (Rules Cyclopedia still the awesome!!!!)
1st edition is best
My first and only experience is with 2nd Edition. I ran an all thief urban robin hood style campaign with several of my friends for a couple of years. That lead me to a 20 year subscription to Dragon Magazine(R.I.P). I just started a small campaign with my sister and her husband, my two nephews, and my daughter. I never ran into many of the negative things I have read about 2nd edition but I have had to do on the fly judgment calls on rules. I have seen some very creative things done with cantrips as well.
I love the system, but I am not above from stealing ideas from some discount 3rd edition books I recently bought.
Second edition was nice, and for awhile I refused to let the carnival ride die and switch to 3rd. But the edition I started on, and the one I still have the most fond memories of was the red basic edition. Demihumans were classes, clerics couldn’t use pointy weapons and my gold-obsessed halfling ended up getting everyone into trouble anytime there was a shiny. The rules were loose and adjudications were done on the fly. Dragons were very fearsome and the whole world was so mysterious. I remember the feeling of exploration every session. Things just seem different now. But I think 4th edition is getting the feel back for that light against the darkness experience I remember as a child. Here’s to the future and to the past that never fades.
2nd edition is the first set of books I baught, The first set of rules I learned, and the first campaign I ran used 2nd edition. As some of you may recall I have been very vocal in the past about my dislike for 4th edition (see the top 10 reasons why 4th ed. will be the worst game ever). I have just recently gotten 3.5 and yet I find my self just using some of the ideas and not really running a 3.5 campaign, but instead modding 2nd edition. I love 2nd and always will. R.I.P. Gary Gygax!
2nd was the best hands down…. 4th kinda follows in its footsteps, except for that the flavor of the chars really was a lot better in 2nd….
Hmm makes me feel old to read this blog. last time i played 2nd edition was around or a wee bit. now there is this talk of fourth hmmm. eh any one still use the 1st edition stuff?
I agree with steve-0 about the Rules cyclop-edia, everything you needed to run a game in one book, magnificent. I still have all the Gazeteers that added a lot of flvour to the world of Mystara. I have not yet had the pleasure of playing 4e i am currently DMing a 3.5 game. One of the players is asking if he can run a 4e when i run out of steam or the group want a change, so we shall see. Much as I loved rules Cyclopdia 3.5 is the best of the versions I have played so far. That is not to say that t5he other versions are not without merit, without the earlier versions would we be where we are today?
@Halfelfman: Sure, I know some people who still play 1st edition – it was and still is a great game.
I still miss 2nd edition…heck I miss basic. I started out with basic when I was 11 years old. The game sparked my imagination. I don’t know if I can play 4th. With Advanced DND you could do almost anything. The DM I had would let you do what you wanted. If you wanted to drop your pants in the middle of the road and use the bathroom…you could. But of course then he would start rolling dice and you might get an arrow in your backside (lol). I’m trying my kids out on 2nd edition. Hopefully this will spark the imagination in my kids that it did me.
I started back in the day of the White Box set… Yeah, I’m a fossil.
I have to wonder though, is it the edition’s mechanics everyone loves, or the adventures had when playing under those rules?
I’ve DMed and played under all of the AD&D rule sets, as well as those old tan pamphlets and suppliments. I don’t know if any one set of mechanics is really better than others, I just remember the adventures, the stories we wove at those tables.
Yes, I think it is more the stories that are talked about, and become group legends, or even just moments of tense drama or side-splitting laughter, a slaughterfest or total confusion. Those moments rise above the mechanics and are talked about whenever at least some of that group gather.
1st or second still the king baby! My main probl;em with 3.0/3.5/4.0 how many times can you sell the same stuff? Mkae something new!
Wow, this article took me back! I still have my Encyclopedia Magica collection. I remember that there was one item that dispensed fizzy potions in tins – a medieval fantasy Coke machine. I also miss the Apparatus of Kwalish; I always wanted to see a disgruntled gnome hole himself up inside it and wreak havoc in the streets.
So yeah. I miss the random craziness of the magic items in 2nd Ed. :)
i played basic (red, blue, green, and black boxes), 1st edition for ever (still use rules from Oriental adventures, Unearthed Arcana, Legends and Lore), but fell in love with the 3nd edition Skills & Powers rule set. The world i created uses that system and mixes in planescape. thought that the S&P rules focused on min maxing for roleplaying benefit, and it is easy for the DM to squash most anything if they put their mind to it.
Hadn’t played in years, but my wife, sons, and a few old friends talked me into starting a new campaign up at the first of the year. going to run them through the elven war (drow split) scenario that i’ve always thought about running. been doing research and brainstorming and found this.
too many good times playing this game…
2nd edition is what i meant. doh!
I would say I am the same way with First Edition. Yes that makes me old. The rules were black & white, and rather lame at times but mostly ok. The Adventures made it shine. Keep on the Borderlands hold true to this day. You played it close to the wire, every one had your back as you did theirs.
I recall a battle with the Dark wizard some Ghouls & a nasty little assassin. The fight was brutal, many fell, but it was a last ditch attempt by Billy Clubbed, Half-ling thief, with 1 hp left, managed to throw his posion dagger half way accross the room and hit the wizards with “20″ (double dmg) plus the poison, the wizard failed the save & the party were raised from the dear to fight on.
Still DMing a 10 year 2nd Edition vampire slayer campaign, 2 of the PCs with their original characters. Looked at 3rd a bit when it came out but just incorporated some of the races/classes. About to begin another 2nd edition campaign (where i actually get to PC) in a couple weeks.
The whole ‘Only nerds play AD&D” stereotype has died down a bit from the start of this campaign some 10 years ago…I would attribute it to Peter Jackson’s LoTR and all of the other successful fantasy-themed films shown to the populace (do not include D&D films! haha). So that’s something I definitely don’t miss from the 90s.
I also don’t miss the sour stomach from too many cinnamon Hot Tamales while we played during those younger days. :D
Regarding Visioneer’s question about whether we fondly remember the stories or the rules:
I’m another one who grew up on 2nd ed (played it since age 9, refused to give it up until college). I had a hell of a lot of fun with that system, using barely anything outside of the core books (though Tome of Magic was a nice addition for my brother’s half-mad transmuter). I never had a problem with THAC0, and even felt offended when I heard that 3e had gotten rid of it.
Fast forward a few years. My current tabletop group has been playing 3e since we got together, and I’m in a couple of 4e play-by-post games which have proven to be quite fun. I still have my old 2e rulebooks around, but these days they’re mostly there for nostalgia. I love the memories of crazy adventures that come back to me when I glance through those books, but Pelor knows I don’t miss using those rules now that I’ve tried something else.
As an aside, I’m currently working on a 4e conversion of the 2e campaign Night Below. So far it’s looking awesome. I can’t wait to actually run this using the new rules.
I bought the exact same starter set that Nicholas mentioned in this article when I was in 7th grade. My step dad (who used to play Dungeons and Dragons himself) agreed to DM for us for the first few adventures so we could figure out what to do. I still use the 2E system and use books that are older than I am :). From my previous experiences with 3 and 3.5 it seemed like the game always ended up being more about the ridiculous things everyone could do, and not as much about the story or the atmosphere of the world. I haven’t even tried 4E because it sounds too much like a video game.
But yeah, much love for 2E. I can’t ever see myself switching to any other system, and I can’t wait until I have kids of my own to DM for.
I dislike 4.0 a whole lot. It feels more like a table top MMO. I love 3.5 and thats where I’m going to stay. But I do love the CRPGs with the ADnD rules.
I still play 2nd edition, & I think its great. I have a line up of people who currently play 3.5 & 4th edition ,waiting to get a seat at my table of 2nd edition dnd. I think what makes the game ( any game great ) is the way you tackel it. Read the ruels, learn the people playing & then go out there & have fun.
Quit picking the other games apart, decide what feels right to you & yours & then put all that effort into making it great for the whole table.
Never found the need to move from 2nd, don,t have anything against other editions or systems, I am sure they are worthy pieces of work. While second has a far greater body of reference material available than any other that I know of, this eases the creative burden on the DM considerably.
Also our library consists of so much the cost of replacing it would be staggering, so 2nd I will stay.
We will be starting a new bi-weekly 2nd campaign by feb 09, those in the dfw area and seriously interested can contact us via the website.
One thing I love about 2E was the distinct flavor of the classes. You were a Thief, or a Bard, or a Paladin (before his castration in 3E and eventually in 4E). Mages were to be feared and respected, not like they are in 4E. I don’t know what that thing is in 4E, but it is no wizard I would come to fear or respect.
There were real penalties for alignment violation. You change alignment, and you could lose XP.
Undead could pose a serious threat; there was something called Level Loss, instead of this “negative level” crap. I love Level Loss – it put genuine terror in the hearts of my players, and I’ve had to bring it back for 3E in order to make Undead scary again. And no, it wasn’t hard to figure out.
The best thing about 1E and 2E was that you really didn’t need a battlemat to play. I suppose you could play 3E without one, but it’s tough, and the game is designed with it in mind. 4E you cannot possibly play without a mat.
True, clerics were short-handed in the beginning, when the only spells they would pray for were Cure Light Wounds and Bless. I think the Spell Channeling ability from 3E would be a suitable way to allow a cleric to pray for other spells without having to worry about whether he needed to heal someone.
I’ve got the solution – just keep playing 2nd Ed! I do. Actually I’ve started making a webcomic based on my 2nd Ed campaign that you might enjoy. It’s Epic Fail at http://comicofepicfail.com
Hehe, I have to agree, people complain about the unballance but in my opinion that is one of the advantages. You can totally outclass something, but also risk being completely outclassed.
After highschool my friends and I had stopped playing 2nd which in grade school we played basic, gone to different colleges, graduated and gotten married. During this time I picked up 3.5 read it, wasnt at all impressed, and never played it. I recently saw last summer that a whole new system 4.0 was coming and my friends had heard about it also and were really excited. Well for Christmas my wife picked up 4.0 and am still very unimpressed. Why do charachters level up at the same xp? Does that mean a 30th level mage will be as powerful as a 30th level fighter or a first level mage will be as powerful as a 1st level fighter? That mages can stand at the front of the party at first level and go toe to toe with the enemy next to the fighter? ANY 20th level fighter or enemy minus an ancient red would think twice about messing with a 20th level mage in 2nd ed. WHO cares about feats and all that garbage, its too much power, too xboxish, for pcs. If you have made it though 20 levels of 2nd ed (which you should be alot higher cause you lost levels from a failed save versus undead) you have certainly earned it and that is why I believe everyone misses the realism of 2nd ed. How many of us have had a total party kill in 2nd ed? I know Ive had at least 5 because we thought we could survive something that was much more powerful and lost rather than retreat. Our party all in the range of 12 to 16th levels thought we could take on an epic adventure and defeat a very old blue. Well it didnt end well made it to the end and had to retreat with our tail between our legs minus one comrade, came back at 18th level and got revenge. Does that happen in 4.0 or can 4 fighters at 15th level go up there and use all their feats and powers and defeat them because they cant die? Seems too easy. And I dont like easy.
We blew 100 dollars on 4.0 and I think Im going to shelve it next to 3.5 for that very reason. Like Nickalin said, its what YOU enjoy and what works for YOU. If anyone has played 2nd ed and is currently playing 4.0 and prefers the latter, please let me know what is the advantage cause wizards of the coast will not answer any of my e-mails.
P.S. For DMs that want to try 2nd ed for combat figure out all of your players THAC0s including all their weapons, figure out all the monsters THAC0s for that adventure and put them on seperate cue cards it will speed up gameplay 3 fold.
@quick: http://www.dungeonmastering.com/tools-resources/where-has-all-the-mean-stuff-gone
This article seems right up your alley. I enjoyed the realism of 2nd edition but I also like the epic fantasy of 4th. They really are two different genres of story and neither one appeals to everyone.
I loved 2ed, bought 3ed when it came out looked at it and thought “what the hell, have WOTC done to my game”. Subsequently lost all my 2ed +FR stuff when my ex’s new boyfriend threw ALL my books out, I was sofa-surfing at the time so had nowhere to store anything. I’ve spent the last 5 years trying to find second hand 2ed stuff which is really hard here in the Uk
I still play the 2nd edition, so not much pining to do. I live in a remote northern town 7500 pop. We have quite a active dnd ( 3.5 & 4th edition) with the younger crouds ( school age etc)
I have a steady group of people ranging from 65 to 14 who play every sat night. & with our 2nd edition game I also have a list of 5-6 people who currently play 3.5 . that want a seat in our …. old out dated 2nd edition game.
DnD is what you make of it … and I fell the biggest thing to make a game a great game is the people you play with. you can have the “best” .. “most perfect” character but if the people suck ………. it is never rembered as a great character only a bad ???? dm, story, game , etc
I say if you are in a game . any edition consider yourself one of the lucky one & enjoy it while you can
I’ll raise a toast to The Evil DM when we sit down at the table for our 2nd Edition game Friday night.
I started out playing 1st edition with the 1979 books, then integrated that with 2nd edition. I’ve never used a battle mat and never intend on doing so. Some of the best adventures I’ve ever shepherded players through were told around campfires with the rulebooks in my head, and a handful of dice. The idea of “feats” is ridiculous to me, and the MMO nature of 4th edition is something I think people should get from video games. My system is entirely human, and the only rules are mine. These things I haven’t been able to find in wotc’s take on D&D, and I tried.
Besides I’m a Planescape DM. From what I understand they have destroyed my whole cosmology, and it’s requisite alignment system. The new editions are fun for a lot of people, but I think they have taken too much flavor from video games in order to appeal to a fresh audience.
I am what they call a grey hair now, lol. I started with 1st edition while in school and 2nd while in the Army. I still have all my books. I take them by the local shop and let the younger crowd see books that many of them have only seen pictures of. The store owner talked me into running a 2nd edition night so now i get to take a new group of people to the places that I loved so well. I think that is the most important thing for us old school gamers, to let the next group know were they came from . Back when D&D was evil and very uncool if you played it, a group of brave souls did it anyway. When i think of all the all-nighters we pulled i wounder how i made it through school.
I started off playing D&D out of the boxed sets..lol. I’ve loved it ever since. I’ve played every edition they’ve come out with. I was really glad to see 4th edition come out ease of of play is immediately apparent. But I will say I miss the old days though especially the level titles. Prestidigitator is still of of my favorites..lol.
I am a 2nd ed fan from way back, I continue to play 2nd ed because me and the group that I play with have decided over the years that despite trying the newer editions for extended trials, that we love the feel of the older 2nd ed game. With no hard feelings about the newer games we hold the now lost torch of days gone by.
For me the numbers in the newer games are just to large, HP is now higher to allow for more damage to be dealt, and damage is increased to make the players of characters feel more powerful. I like that I do not need to rolls hordes of dice or have huge bonuses to be powerful, or to make a difference.
The other thing that endears the older game to me is the lack of emphasis that the game puts on Min/Maxing a character, the emphasis for most additional material in 2nd ed is mostly flavor related. More Modern editions of the game seem to wrap Min/Maxing in a thin layer of flavor text just so they can say “see not JUST power gaming”.
But you are right also in that there is just as much that I don’t like, but the older editions rules were disconnected from any central system, and that made replacing a rule you did not like very easy without forcing the DM to follow a system wide mechanic or risk having incompatiable rules.
Thanks for the chance to weigh in on this
Personally, I have stuck with 2nd Edition since it came out. My kids, and my Girlfriend’s kids had started out on 3rd… but after seeing how sterile it was, they made the switch to 2nd.
I am proud to be unleashing anther generation of “2nd edition Mafia” upon the rpg scene. ;-)
The powers that compel me ,tells me that this thing they call 4E will fail with the elders as did 3E and 3.5.Why old warduke has memorabilia from those who actually worked at TSR and has corresponded with those who helped to create 2E,and even they agree that that the newer system blows! I shall only say it but once!Hasbro is the true enemy and hasbro is a creator of toys made in the far off oriental setting of china( or perhaps it was kara-tur?) for but pennies on nigh dollar! Not a system they bought from thy beloved childhood company,oh no sirree!But thy profit shares from Lorraine Williams,who was once quoted as saying”gamers are beneath me.”whilst keeping yon buck rogers gaming rights close to her age spotted buxom.A fledgeling corporation by the name wizards of the coast known for making a series of piss-poor cards had the wealth to buy out TSR from thier own sucsess,which they soon did as to rid themselves of any profitable competition and soon found themselves in a most dire situation.Thier 2E games we’re quite the fashion for the moment,pitting players against adventures that most had ever dreamed of,such as battleing vecna himself or saving waukeen from the bowels of the most evil abbyss.However,this was not to last very long,as products we’re slow to reach shelves and video games at the time we’re becoming more standard than tabletop gaming,they soon lost a profit margin that forced them to lose thier own stock to thier greater shareholders at mighty hasbro.Hasbro had foresaw profit from fat nerds and “emo kids” as they we’re called,and soon the rules we’re changed to dumb down gameplay so that most anyone could play,thus leaving behind the most loyal of TSR’s past followers.Gone was the tinkering gnomes who worked in thier shops and from the school of magic the illusionists of old had all but dissapeared.Powers we’re now freely given out like report cards on sunday school morning,and most characters could’nt tell the difference from one another.Thus warduke by this time had amassed many more 2E modules and boxed sets than he would ever be able to play,but treat him like they we’re his sired children he did,thus the story had been written and 2E had remained in the hearts and minds of mortal men till the very collapse of the great civilizations of the great world.
tried 3.0 not the same. but now with the d20 system your character can be in any game sphere(ancient, modern, future, ect….). been there, done that, use the shirt as a greese rag.
Ive been DMing a 2nd edition game for a few sesions and i realy enjoy it as for the new 4e the more i read about it the more unatractive it gets. any way theres no telling how long my group will last so i dont want to waste that much cash on books that wont be used. great site and great article by the way.
1st Edition was best. Really, why do we need anything more than Fighters, Clerics, Thieves, and Wizards? I can understand rules changes that make things easier, like THAC0, but almost everything else has just complicated and unbalanced the game. Back in the day, we could take someone who’d never played an RPG before and have them playing in half an hour. I could never see that happening with the newer rules.
Unearthed Arcana and the Barbarian class was where things started to go downhill. In the campaign I was playing in, no-one wanted to run regular fighters anymore after Unearthed Arcana. People who played fighters now always wanted to be a Barbarian or Cavalier, the non-fighters began to push for more power for their own characters in order to keep up, the DM had to make the monsters harder to give them a shot against these unbalanced characters, and it made life harder for everyone. I’ve not played in a long time, but from what I’ve read of the newer rules editions, this type of practice has run amok. Every character seems to start out as awesome and move up from there.
I looked over the 4th edition Players Handbook and DM guide in a bookstore today, and I agree with the earlier comment that the characters there seem like you’re making something up for a video game – that was exactly my thought. If that’s what the experience is like, why not just play CRPG’s?
And wtf is the ‘Players Handbook 2′ all about? Players Handbook 2? Are they completely shameless when it comes to finding ways to sell new rules?
Bleh… I’m ranting. I’m just pissed because I really used to enjoy the game at one time, and I know I never will again. :-(
halfling thieves are overkill in 2nd edition and they never have the same pwnage again, 2 daggers to the throat with initiative and another 2 to follow up then a pickpocket of a party member while he loots for you, fucking madness!
well, there is nothing I miss about AD&D 1st or 2nd EDs.
I am actually still DMing a world that is a combination of both.
I don’t see why anyone has to miss anything, they just have to get some people together that are willing to forget the “new and improved” versions and work with that which was/is actually good.
Thanks. 2nd Edition is still my favorite. For all the reasons you mentioned and many more… I wanted to add one more: D12s. Who uses those things for anything else?
The only experience I have playing third edition is in computer games. It seems like a good fantasy RPG, but as someone old enough to have played Basic D&D, then First edition AD&D, I feel I’m qualified to say that 3rd&4th editions are NOT D&D. My group and I don’t even play them, and never will.
Played them all and enjoyed them all, but now days I much prefer 4E over any of the previous editions. 3/3.5 collapses under the weight of all it’s rules and complexity. 1E & 2E are just cumbersome and combat is boring. 4E has simple and clean well designed rules focused on fun. Of all the editions, the 4E rules get in the way the least. I’m not saying 4E’s perfect, but as a complete system I like it the most.
A few weeks I joined a new 2E campaign that was just starting. Most hadn’t played 2E and those that had hadn’t played in a long time. The first session was a mess with people struggling to figure out simple things like THAC0, when to roll high, when to roll low and weapons speeds. Lot’s of confusion and a lot of wasted time.
On the other hand I just started a 4E campaign last week with only one player having played before (2 sessions). I had seven players. One was a player’s girlfriend that just watches the 2E games and never wants to play. I handed her the quick start rules and five minutes later she grabbed a pregen and was playing. There were a few rules questions, but the first session ran much smoother than the first 2E session and we got a lot more accomplished in the game. Overall the rules alone made it a better experience for everyone.
4e is for mongoloids and ppl who are too stupid to figure out simple things like thac0,play your watered down crapfest sandbox game,and leave whats left of a game that doesent require you to kiss boys and have a hitler haircut to the real RPG’ers,go play World of warcrap and oh and eat a dick!
The Evil DM’s comment way up at the top wins.
thats what gaming is all about and the lame “overlooking” of 2e by gamers is just some corny stigma. the game runs great. has tons of 1st edition feel and still leaves ANYTHING “new” as optional. how can a game be bad when everything is OPEN to use/non-use? not to mention they created a lot of supplements for options. you can use 3 core books (PHB, DMG, MM) or 20 (handbooks, worlds, etc).
i still collect it and 1st edition and wont buy anything further. why bother? to create an over-contrived industry going? im the consumer, i decide where i stop.
how can someone half a problem with THAC0? its one of the easiest things to understand ever. ahah
yeah i see the typo, shut up ;)